Before you can train a dog to herd sheep and cattle, you need to work on its obedience.
That's according to Beloka Kelpie stud principal Paul Macphail, Welshpool, who has been training working dogs for 30 years.
Mr Macphail prefers working with Kelpies, and said even though they often took longer to train than other breeds, they were worth it in the long run.
"I prefer Kelpies because of their ignorance and their ability to get things done," he said.
"And they're all roundedness, they've got that paddock work as well as yard work.
"They've also got that independence.
"Kelpies will take twice as long as a Border Collie to train, but in the end, if you've got a good one, you'll have twice the dog."
He said people often asked him when to start training their puppies with stock, and his answer was always "not yet".
"Before you get them out with stock, you've got to teach them some manners," he said.
He said there were five things to prioritise teaching puppies - sit, stay, release, recall, and the ability to walk with you and focus on you.
He said nailing the focus came down to good leadership.
"Dogs look for authority," he said.
"You've got to be the boss, not too hard and not too soft.
"They need that because back in the day when they were wolves, they had the alpha wolf who was in charge of the hunt and getting food."
He said giving dogs the right feedback helped teach them these abilities.
"They need to know what they're doing right and wrong," he said.
"When they're doing something wrong, use a grumpy tone or a 'stop', and for good behaviour it's the sooky, soft tones.
"If you're working with them, don't give them too much credit and tell them you love them until the job is done."
But he said never reward a dog when it was needy or dominant.
"You only want to reward calm behaviour," he said.
"When you wake up in the morning and your dog is jumping all over you, excited to see you, don't pat it until it's settled down."
He said often dogs needed more containment than freedom.
"Everybody thinks they should be out all day, but they shouldn't, it sends them bonkers," he said.
Mr Macphail said once you had instilled obedience into your pup, you could start putting them out with sheep, and for him, that was normally at the 12-week mark.
"Get a few quiet sheep, and it's better to have younger sheep as older sheep can get a bit nasty with pups," he said.
"If you don't have quiet sheep, get yourself a small, contained area."
He recommended putting a group of pups in the pen - and then putting them out in pairs - with the sheep to get a sense of which had the right instincts.
"You want to see how they react and work the sheep; you can usually tell at an early age," he said.
He uses a rake to get inbetween pups and sheep if needed.
"You want a dog that goes around the sheep, and who's able to hold the sheep together and bring them to you," he said.
"If it does that, it's kicking goals, then you can start teaching it to stop and sit and go around."
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He said at the end of the day, the success of a dog depended on its trainer.
"If they can work their dogs properly, I think the value's amazing," he said.
"Obviously there's been some huge prices paid for dogs, [and] that reflects that they're [getting bang for their buck].
"I could take two or three dogs out to muster 1000 sheep, get them through the draft and shearing shed and it's not that hard and physical on me.
"The dogs are doing the work, I'm just doing the operating."
He said there were a lot of benefits to working dogs beyond their help on farm.
"They're your mate," he said.
"You're usually out on the farm doing things yourself and the dogs become part of you.
"I think that's an important part of it to have that bond with your dog.
"They've still got work to do but they love it and think of nothing else."